BackMember Survey -- AgileCAT list Discussion
The following are messages posted to the AgileCAT list regarding the member survey
| Fellow Club Members, Our President, Dick Watson, recently asked us to respond to a Board survey regarding CAT's 10th anniversary celebration. I think the impact on the Club is serious enough that there should as much input from members as possible. These are my comments and ideas that I posted to the survey and I hope others will respond to the survey at CAT's web site and maybe we can have a discussion here as well. Comments It is my view, the choices of giving away $10,000 to $20,000 is not why I joined CAT and have been supportive of the organization. While it is fine to celebrate our 10th anniversary in some modest way, I don't think it is prudent for CAT to give away its assets, especially since so many volunteers generated this money. We are classified as a "Social Club" by the Internal Revenue Service and the State of Oregon, meaning we are non-profit, but this does not make us a charity organization or a Club that can accept donations that are tax deductible to contributors. As an IRS 501(c) 7 organization we organized to meet the IRS criteria for clubs of "Pleasure, recreation and other non profitable purposes must be shown in the application to be the objectives of your club." While this does not prevent us from giving money away, it does allow us to accumulate excess income to be used for the benefit of our Club. Other organizations in this group have physical facilities and apparently, some have accumulated sums of money, held to benefit their club. I just think it is not wise or necessary to give our hard-earned assets away. We want to use our assets to directly benefit our Club and members and after all, their volunteer efforts generated this money.
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| hi, i wasn't going to give an oppinion on the e-mail group about what CAT should do for it's 10th anniversary, however now that others have i guess i will. i understand both sides of the argument, i agree that it would be wonderful if eventually CAT had it's own facility, and that should be something that we are planning for. however at the same time think about all the good that could come of CAT donating money to any or all of the options that were listed in the survey. i realize that CAT is not a charity orginization however i don't see why that should prevent us from helping others (including up and comming agility teams) that are not as successful as us. i don't know maybe i'm looking at it from a humanitarian (dogitarian :) ) perspective but i think that when one has the ability to help out one should, and CAT deffinatly has that ability |
| I would tend to agree Dwight - tho it seems like a lot of
$$, in the big scheme it's not a lot. On the idea of a facility - consider what was done in Polk county and I'm sure has been done elsewhere - work out an agreement with the county fairboard to invest in upgrading an arena in exchange for reduced cost/free use. |
| This idea really comes from Martha Mullis, one of the
original founders of CAT. When I asked her what sort of thing she would like some of CAT's money to go toward, she suggested a stipend for a Vet student, to be chosen by the SCHOOL! It could be given out in yearly increments, and although $5,000.00/year may not be much in the grand scheme of things, I'll bet it would be very helpful for a struggling student! Remember, this great idea was Martha's!! Carol Hibbard |
| Although I find the idea of giving a large sum of money away
to a charity a noble endeavor, I really think that many of the ideas do not really fit
with the stated purpose of the club. I believe that we need to think long and hard about
this before we consider a large irrevocable donation. Remember that this money belongs to
the members of the club. I believe that whatever is done with the money, it should
benefit the members of the club. To do otherwise is to give away "our money" to
causes that members might not choose to support. My suggestions are: 1. Establish a comittee to evaluate the feasability of building a facility or entering into a partnership with some other organization for the same purpose. There are probably lots of options to explore here. 2. Consider the formation of a fund to help members defray veterinary expenses for agility-related injuries. If we are going to support people going to Nationals, we can certainly support medical care for our "teammates" Whether or not non-sports-related injuries (ie chemo for cancer patients) should be included could also be considered. 3. The best way to promote the sport of dog agility is to provide lessons, seminars and barn time to members. The cost of seminars could be reduced, as could lessons or barn time. That might mean these activities lose money, but I find that a more attractive idea then giving away club money for non-agility related activities, no matter how worthwhile they are. Perhaps we can make more modest contributions to some of the very worthwhile organizatins/projects listed on the survey, in addition to some of the above (or other) ideas. Just my 2 cents worth. I applaud the effort of the club's leadership to put these questions out there, and I encoourage all members of the club to become involved in the process, by filling out the on-line survey. Berklee Robins |
| > 2. Consider the formation of a fund to help members
defray veterinary > expenses for agility-related injuries. If we are going to support people I'd like to weigh in on that topic! I've been the grateful recipient of such a fund. BJ's ruptured ACL happened at a time when I was unemployed, behind on paying bills, a pretty bleak time indeed. An agility friend started an internet collection for BJ's surgery. I was overwhelmed with the generosity of so many people from so many places! Two organizations committed to helping people with catastrophic vet bills pitched in. One was a specific fund of the Beardie list called the CATVet fund - money donated by others to help those with catastrophic vet bills. The other a Beardie rescue organization with a separate fund for the same type thing. I know there are people who will jump in and say "who is to determine who gets how much" and all that. These two organizations had none of that going on. Committee sent a couple of emails back and forth, they looked at the balance, looked at the need and generously gave an amount they felt good about. It happened in a matter of hours! Not a long debate. Not a who deserves what and how do we decide. Just here's a need, here's what we have, let's give this amount. A gift is a gift. There is no need that it be fair, that it be public, that it be the same for every case. Just quiet lending a hand to someone who needs it. It's been stated several times that people feel the money ought to benefit members in some way. This would be an ideal way in my opinion. Not only to restore the health and ability of an agility dog but of a dog loved and part of the life of a CAT member. It's a gift that keeps on giving too. Many people dontated to BJ's fund anonymously by their choice. I can't ever thank them directly. I can't ever contribute (knowingly) to a fund for their dog's injury or illness. What I can do is make sure that I rise to the occasion each time I see the need for funds for catastrophic vet bills. And trust me, someone receiving help at a time of crisis wont' forget that gift. She or he will "pay that back" when faced with an opportunity. Helix Fairweather |
| Berklee has some good ideas about the money helping all the
club members and maybe since Mollie is injured and I'm facing high vet bills I lean
towards us helping CAT member with that expense and I agree with Helix. A gift is a gift,
yes some would take advantage of it, but you know most of us would be so extremely
grateful that we would give back more than we received. The board meets tomorrow night, so now is a great time to get on the Internet and add your comments. With the economy the way it is right now a reduced fee for a seminar or class would also be appreciate by me. I'd also like to hear more thoughts on the possibility of us getting our own place? or sharing a place with another organization? Kathryn |
| I agree with Berklee and I like his ideas! Brenda Veldink |
| > I really think that many of the ideas do not >really fit with the stated purpose of the club. ... Remember that this >money belongs to the members of the club. I believe that whatever is done >with the money, it should benefit the >members of the club. * I absolutely agree with this. Club purpose: Promote & support the sport of dog agility. Since it's our money -- let's turn it around and help our members & our club, as well as our local area, while we promote & support. It's not like we have half a million dollars to sink into the development of some national-level research project. But our $10,000-$20,000 could go a looooong way locally. * I love Berklee's & Helix's idea of helping with large vet bills that are the result of agility-related injuries. (Personally, I doubt that my dogs will ever need this, but I fully support the use of our monies for other club members' injured dogs. There, but for the grace of God...) >The best way to promote the sport of dog agility is to provide >lessons, seminars and barn time to members. The cost of seminars could >be reduced, as could lessons or barn time. That might mean these >activities lose money, but I find that a more attractive idea then >giving away club money for non-agility related activities, no matter how >worthwhile they are. * I concur fully. Let's reduce the cost of seminars, for sure! Those are expensive! There are MANY of us who do not live close enough to a CAT barn to access classes or barn time regularly, so a reduction in seminar costs for all CAT members could benefit everyone, no matter where they lived. * I'd also like to see CAT buy several copies of current agility training books & videos. One copy of each is just not enough for a club of over 300 members.
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| > On the idea of a facility - consider what was done in
Polk county and I'm > sure has been done elsewhere - work out an agreement with the county fairboard > to invest in upgrading an arena in exchange for reduced cost/free use. > > --------------------------------------- But what county would CAT work with? I live in Cloumbia County, quite a few members live in Marion county, and I don't think Multnomah county has a "fairground" any more..it is the Expo. So many activities are held down in the southern part of Portland, (Clackamas) it would be nice to have a more centrally located facility. Barb Aulbach |
| It sure is great to have this problem of where to spend
excess funds. There have been many good and worthwhile ideas put forward - easily
enough to eat up hundreds of thousands of dollars. Allow me to make a case for starting a foundation to support research in canine sports medicine: Some CAT members were at Suzanne Clothier's seminar a few months ago and heard her wise comments about the scarcity of solid information regarding injuries, injury prevention, nutrition or any other topic involving agility dogs. I couldn't agree more. You can find many studies involving sled dogs, greyhound racing and hunting dogs for the simple reason that the people who are involved in these dog sports support research by reaching into their pockets. I see very few acute injuries in agility - the "fell off the dog walk and broke a leg" type of injuries. I am convinced that most of the problems we confront in agility dogs are repetitive stress injuries. As a result, these injuries can be difficult to diagnose precisely and just as difficult to treat successfully. Because the symptoms can be so vague, it's not unusual to blame any reduction in performance to "he's just getting old". If we knew enough, could we extend the performance career of our dogs? What about just helping them be more comfortable as they age? Some of the questions that need to be answered are: What kind of conditioning programs and training methods will minimize the risk of repetitive stress injuries? What is an effective warm up and cool down regimen for an agility dog? What are acceptable distances between obstacles on an agility course if our goal is to reduce injury? Angles between obstacles? How can the way agility obstacles are designed and built affect the incidence of injury? What is the best way to rehabilitate an agility dog after surgery for a ruptured cruciate ligament? What is the best way to diagnose the many types of soft tissue injuries? How do we best treat these injuries so the patient can return to competition? Just a few questions off the top of my head - give me 24 hours and I could come up with another 50. A research foundation certainly would not have any immediate benefit to CAT members, but the potential is great, especially if we could combine forces with other agility clubs across the country. The leadership of CAT over the last 10 years is to be congratulated for our dilemma. I suspect there aren't many agility clubs with this problem! Sorry for being so long-winded, but the subject of canine sports medicine is a bit of a soap box for me. Respectfully- Carol Helfer, DVMG |
| > I agree with Berklee and I like his ideas! > I too agree with the reasoning behind Berklee's ideas. Jane Staugas Bray and Raven (I just want to do agility soon, Mom!) |
| I very much like the comments and ideas in this email. The $$ belong to all members. How about underwriting the costs of some of the barn spaces instead. Why would we close an available practice barn for lack of funds when we aretrying to figure out how to give $$ away? Perhaps the extra $$ could go for rental of more barn space, classes or seminars. |
| > > It sure is great to have this problem of where to spend excess funds. There have been many good and worthwhile ideas put forward - easily enough to eat up hundreds of thousands of dollars. > Allow me to make a case for starting a foundation to support research in canine sports medicine: Some CAT members were at Suzanne Clothier's seminar a few months ago and heard her wise comments about the scarcity of solid information regarding injuries, injury prevention, nutrition or any other topic involving agility dogs. I couldn't agree more. You can find many studies involving sled dogs, greyhound racing and hunting dogs for the simple reason that the people who are involved in these dog sports support research by reaching into their pockets. Ah!! That's a dynamite idea! While I love a catastrophic vet fund (and there could be a small fund started), THIS I love even more because so little has been done. And how very very much good this could mean to all agility dogs, not just CAT members' dogs. I LOVE this idea, simply LOVE it! Helix Fairweather |
| The idea of researching agility injuries is very appealing.
Unfortunately, I believe the club is not in aposition to make a significant contribution.
The amount of money it takes to do research is probaly in the tens, if not hundreds of
thousands of dollars. You need a lab, personnel and equipment. In addition, I submit that
we are not qualified to adequately assess the merits of a research proposal. If you look
at the model used in human medicine, researchers have to submit research proposals to a
source of funding (ie the NIH or other organization that awards research funds) and
proposals are reviewed by a field of experts to determine the worthiness of the project
based on the hypothesis and study design (Matt Sachs could probably add something here as
he is an NIH funded scientist). I agree that the idea is worthy, but unfortunately, not
practical. These are projects that would best be funded in other ways. I would personally rather use the funds to bring experts (Suzanne Clothier, Christine Zink etc) back at a cost that makes them affordable for lots of members. On a personal note, as the team-mate of a dog who has had 3 knee operations in the last 2 years, at a cost of many thousands of dollars, I would rather see the money used to make sure that all of our partners have the opportunity to return to a full and healthy life, whether it includes agility or not. The fear and sadness of never being able to play ball, much less agility, with my team-mate was nearly overwhelming, and I am grateful for the opportunity to play with her again.And if we "Q" again, that is just a bonus! Again, just more food for thought. |
| > The idea of researching agility injuries is very
appealing. > Unfortunately, I believe the club is not in aposition to make a > significant contribution. The amount of money it takes to do research is The Havanese people have funded research. They are at the forefront in research into hereditary eye diseases. They are working with a researcher who is, of course, garnering more funds through other channels. The Beardie organizations, similar thing. The Beardie folks have qualified vets on the health committees doing the appraisal. CAT has qualified vets. > probaly in the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. You need a > but unfortunately, not practical. These are projects that would best be > funded in other ways. I would personally rather use the funds to bring > experts (Suzanne Clothier, Christine Zink etc) back at a cost that makes > them affordable for lots of members. Definitely. But I *know* Suzanne has tons of information on research studies, how to fund them, where and so on. I don't think human medicine is the right model as canine research is a grass roots effort. I can find out more if things go that direction - such as background on the Beardie and the Hav funded research. Helix |
| Columbia Agility Team has a mission statement to promote and
support agility. We ask our dogs to perform incredible tasks at speed and use their
bodies in many ways. Unlike other sports, we have not put the money and energy into
finding out what is best for our dogs. We all love our dogs and want them to be able
to run as long as possible without debilitating and repetitive injuries. We have a
dog in our home that is recuperating from an injury and yes, having a dog is expensive.
It would be nice to help members pay for their dog's treatment but even better to
know how to prevent future injuries. We can better the sport of agility and be a
leader in advancing the knowledge base of the sport. I would hope other clubs across
the country would lend their support. We have the opportunity to help ourselves and every
dog and handler who participates in the sport of agility when we invest in research.
It will not be an easy task but one well worth our support. Marilyn Watson and Ned |
| Well this is a great topic, and I have heard many great
ideas!! I, who is a charter member of this club, have seen this club grow from 10 members to this awesome 300+ member club in the last 10 years. I really feel in my heart this club needs to help it's members, but I also feel that it needs to also show it's appreciation to the agility community, because without the competitors we would not be having this discussion.... So one idea is, I think Herb is looking into, is why don't we check out Vet Insurance? If there is a good program out there, I don't see why CAT can't do something so all members could buy it at a low cost. Also I really do feel,if we can do it, that helping out in research will benefit the whole agility community. This is just my two cents (-: Hilary |
| I have to agree with Berklee on the feasibility of funding
research-- it isn't as simple as giving money to a vet willing to do research. Well
planned and executed research is phenominally expensive and complicated to
administrate. (I can give lots of details here as I work to manage approximately 80
research grants at OHSU.) As individuals in the sport of agility, I think we could do a great deal of good for not only our dogs, but all dogs in the sport if we work hard to educate ourselves on "how dogs work" physically and mentally. Bringing in and subsidizing the cost for speakers that are experts on dogs, not just the sport of agility (Suzanne Clothier, Christine Zink, Patricia McConnel, Chris Bach, etc.) could help all of us be better trainers and coaches. By knowing how to recognize a dog's physical and mental strengths and weaknesses, we can learn to adapt our training methods to best fit each dog we work with. Specialists in nutrition, alternative medicine, canine sports medicine could also be brought in as speakers/presenters. Sara's suggestion of buying multiple copies of some of the training books and videos seems very reasonable. Based on my previous point,some videos by animal behaviorists would be a good addition to the CAT collection. I also like the idea of small grants to local junior and 4-H clubs. I don't think we have to commit to an entire set of equipment--most clubs wouldn't have a place to store it anyway. Being able to help by providing a set of weave poles, a tunnel, or some contact equipment could go a long way. I also like the idea of providing regular barn time to local 4-H clubs if they have CAT member as their instructor/coach. Even with all of this, I think there would be plenty of funding available to help offset unexpected vet bills for club members needing assistance. Charlotte |
| Several people have commented that trying to fund research
isn't practical because it is too expensive to be practical. I agree that research is expensive and that the amount of money CAT has available is a drop in the bucket. However, if clubs like ours don't make the first move, it will never happen. Somewhere in the last few days someone suggested combining efforts with other interested individuals and clubs. We don't have to spend every penny on this idea. We could start with $5000 and start contacting other clubs. We might be surprised at the level of interest. If no one responds, then we back off and try again another day. I don't wish to be tiresome, but WE have to fund any research because no one else is going to do it for us. Carol Helfer, DVM |
| This is a great discussion and I hope everyone reading this
is aware of what the club is directly doing for them. Here are a few of the items
that I can think of at the moment. 10 % member discounts for entry fees at CAT Trials and Seminars Money to go to National Competitions 50% discount for all Junior Handlers at our Trials A donation of at least $300 to the Chairperson's charity of choice for each Trial (Minimum of $1800 per year). Subsidize the barn rental Awards at year end. Supporting several 4H groups Dwight Cash |
| > Several people have commented that trying to fund
research isn't practical because it istoo expensive to be practical. We might also consider a donation to AKC Canine Health Foundation or similar group directed to a specific research project. I've got a call into an acquaintance at the health foundation to see if they have any projects that would begin to answer some of the performance injury issues. Judi James |
| Just my two cents. All the proposals seem really great, but the one that seems the most beneficial for all is this sort of research. It is in everyone's interest to understand injury, how to prevent it, how to recognize it, how to recover from it. It is only in one person's interest to help them pay for one blown knee. (That being said, watch my dog now blow a knee.) What is the old saying? Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach a man to fish and he is fed for a lifetime. Or something like that. Certainly helping those with injured dogs is a great thing, and possibly some of the money could be set aside for that project. I work for a corporation that has a fund set up specifically to help co-workers who are REALLY down on their luck (i.e., co-worker needing emergency double-bypass with a wife diagnosed with cancer, and no income other than disability). The corporation adds some to the pot every quarter. We (the co-workers) make donations and hold small fundraisers to add more. The fund ran into trouble last year when the employee-based committee gave money to anyone who applied, but now it seems to be healthy again. Lisa Harper |
| Several people have commented that trying to fund research
isn't practical because it is too expensive to be practical. I agree that research is
expensive and that the amount of money CAT has available is a drop in the bucket. |
| > I don't wish to be tiresome, but WE have to fund any
research because no one > else is going to do it for us. > First you have to find a laboratory or company that is interested in doing research on the problem that you want to have researched. That is not easy. I show shelties and the American Shetland Sheepdog Assn, our parent club has about $100,000 sitting in a fund to research a skin disease that is in collies and shelties. The research will cost about $60,000 a year, but we have not been successful in getting anyone interested in working on this disease. Research is a long drawn out process, that might not bring any final conclusions. Now if there is research already going on about sports injuries in dogs, maybe we could donate a portion of our excess funds, but do we want to do a donation every year? A one time donation is not going to help much. Barb Aulbach |
| here is my two cents worth, we still need more practice
space, yes a barn, on the west side. i like the idea of working w hillsboro to use
space at the fairgrounds. justine |
| > I don't wish to be tiresome, but WE have to fund any
research because no one else is going to do it for us. > Exactly. If CAT chooses to search out other clubs to collaborate with on research funding, I will volunteer to be on the committee. Helix |
| I took a quick look into funded projects within the AKC
CHFoundation - there is a current study on angle of the tibial plateau in Labs as a
precurser of injury - sounds like the type of research that would be of benefit to agility
folk. The Health Foundation can accept 'challenge' donations in which the donor
proposes X if matched by other organizations to go towards a specific research
project. Perhaps CAT could come up with what they want the project to be (perhaps
working the foundation to help draft the request for proposal), and then challenge other
clubs - in AKC or not - to help fund the request. -- Judi James - Out Oregon Way |
| Boy, haven't checked my email in a few days......lots of talk
on what to do with some of the CAT Assets. Althought I haven't viewed or responded
to the website survey yet, my first thought is to find and pay for an agility competition
facility OTHER THAN THE CANBY FAIRGROUNDS. Yes, I'm excited about this
weekend's Black Cat, but I think that this facility is not large enough for our trials.,
not to mention the mud, sub par restrooms, mostly the mud! Clark County
is the best (in my opinion) There has to be other facilities to rent, maybe
they will cost a bit more, but sounds like we have the cash. PS--how are we going to have the Winter NADAC Trial in Feb. in Canby! Squeezing a 3 ring trial into a 2 ring facility........blech! Thanks! Gayla, not to fond of Clackamas County Fairgrounds in Canby! |
| > I took a quick look into funded projects within the AKC
CHFoundation - there > is a current study on angle of the tibial plateau in Labs as a precurser of > injury - sounds like the type of research that would be of benefit to I know the hackles will arise that canine research is being funded by AKC but it will benefit all dogs nevertheless. Helix |
| Overall, I really agree with Carol Helfer and Char Wenger.
Although the idea of University reasearch or something along those lines really
makes my mouth water, I just don't know if we really can swing it in the big picture. It's
kind of cracked me up to see everyone say " my '2 cents' worth" when we keep
talking about finances. Let's face it, a majority of agility people are not exactly
oozing money. In thinking about this since Suzanne Clothiers last seminar 3-4 weeks ago I really believe we need to look harder at our own individual dogs and what each dog is really physically capable of doing. Are we asking too much of our dogs? Are they willing? Of course they are, they're faithful dogs. We must be faithful mom's and dad's. I think the research idea is a little bit of the 'putting the cart before the horse' We need to learn more about dogs movement and capablities and honestly saying which dogs are built for agility, no they are NOT all the border collies in the world. Some dogs-including my own dog-is not built for agility, however he loves the game and I don't want to take it away from him if I don't have to but I've modified the way he plays and his overall care. In a sport where mixed breed dogs, rescue dogs, in other words ANY dog is allowed to play we are not seeing structually sound dogs (of course there is no 'perfect dog' sport). Almost everyone in agility is there to have fun with their teammate no matter where they came from because we love a sport to play with our best friend. I DO NOT want to say that only structurally sound dogs should be in agility, what I want to say is that if WE KNEW what was a problem area in each dog then we would know better how to PREVENT injuries in our partner. Can I say that in my own experience, having radiographs done on your dog is NOT ENOUGH, although it's a nice start. I also think, although this is nothing to do with finances, the SCT's in agility are ridiculous, it forces us to run our dogs in a very unsafe manner to try and get a Q. Although Drake is a fast dog, it's not worth the Q to bust him up. Agility's motto is to have fun--not run yourself til you break your dog and yourself-Right Berkley :-) We really need to educate ourselves and I think putting money towards that via more books in the library, getting speakers, etc etc etc will be a good way of doing this. I think we're onto something hot here. I really disagree with putting our money into outside sources. The money needs to go towards the club members who helped generate it to begin with. Let's face it, we the humans don't "do agility", the dogs do the agility and I think the finances needs to go to their safety. Although in my opinion this does not include paying for vet bills. Your dog, your responsibility. Here I go climbing off my soapbox which is taller then I am. Thanks for reading if you've gotten this far. Lisa Klein |
| I'm not talking about AKC - but the Canine Health Foundation,
which as of now is the only organized group in the US that sponsors ongoing research into
canine health issues for the benefit of ALL dogs. If not for the health foundation's work
since its creation roughly ten years ago, the canine genome map would still be a dream
along with advances in identifying the genetic cause of PRA, vWD, and several other lesser
known health issues - which affect mixed breeds as well as purebreds. Taking
advantage of their organization and management of research funds to benefit canines takes
a lot of the hassles out of a research grant program and increases the chance the funds of
many donors can be pooled to make a research dream a reality. -------------------- Judi James & the RainKee Crew |
| OK, can't resist. My soapbox/wishlist/personal opinions
etc. etc. Research......heard something recently about proposed research re: agility dogs, from OSU. Group pet insurance (go Hilary) for those active club members......not just members to get the insurance. Emergency fund for vet bills Key workers at trials......chair, secretary, all chief workers, should receive a free weekend entry for one dog. This has been a really nice discussion with lots of good ideas. Keep up the good work! Cindi |
| Research......heard something recently about proposed
research re: agility > dogs, from OSU. > > Group pet insurance (go Hilary) for those active club members......not just > members to get the insurance. > > Emergency fund for vet bills > > Key workers at trials......chair, secretary, all chief workers, should > receive a free weekend entry for one dog. I support all these! These are great ideas. Especially the OSU one if that is really going on. Support our local vet school and benefit agility dogs. The group pet insurance and the free weekend entry might entice more people to take on key leadership roles if not get them more involved. Here is an idea... If a junior handler raised money to go to nationals(similar to what David Mohr was doing selling his jumps) CAT would match funds to send them. Bonnie, Meagan and Zach Raleigh, Rosie and Max |
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